“David John” is a 69-year old retired business man, husband, father and grandfather. He loves traveling, culture, theatre and music.
RT: What does old mean to you?
DJ: What does old mean to me?
RT: Yes, what does the idea of old mean to you? What does the concept of old mean to you? When is someone old?
DJ: Well, I think there’s a huge variation between people as you get older that you don’t see when you’re younger. Chronologically there’s no choice – you’re old when you’re at an age when people in your age group are dying or when you’re approaching the average life span.
But being old or acting old from my point of view is when you’re fixed at whatever stage you’re at and when you’re not open to change, when your interests are in the past.
There’s such a big difference between people who are the same age when you get to my age or older. I have a living mother and at her age it’s dramatic as well. As far as I’m concerned it separates the men from the boys!
RT: What’s the difference between where you’re at vs. your mom. When you think of her age and her stage, what shows up for you?
DJ: She’s actually very good, she’s very young in her attitude. She just visited NYC…
RT: How old is she?
DJ: She’s 91, she’ll be 92 in the fall. She still golfs, she still drives, she goes to theatre all the time. She came in for my daughter’s graduation here in NYC and walked at least a mile every day. She went to see a play, the Book of Mormon, which is certainly not geared to people who are 90 years old (it’s written by the South Park guys). She loved it and said it was terrific! So she’s an example of someone who is not old to me and she’s living exactly the way I would like to if I ever got to her age. She’s my role model. She’s aware of modern culture and participates in it.
She’s physically vigorous as well. She eats healthily and she has done so all her life. She never dieted. She doesn’t put sweeteners in her coffee. She eats normal, healthy meals and she keeps physically active. It pays off. She’s lucky too but it pays off in terms of what she’s able to do and how she can enjoy her life.
Recently I visited the city where I grew up and was at an event with my contemporaries. They are old people to me, even the way they look, the way they dress, their hair…they are fixed in their time. Some people have their heyday and stay there. They have the hairstyle that they had in a certain year, thought it suited them and never changed it. I used to see moustaches like that on men – thinking what year did they get that one?
But I’m lucky because I have teenagers in the house and we share music together. When they love something they plug us into it and I always enjoy that so it fits perfectly. We have a lot of musical tastes in common and I love change and I love new things. It’s not that I force it, it’s that I always like change, I’m excited by change and I embrace change. My mother is the same way and my father was the same way as well.
RT: It sounds like both your parents have influenced you. Is there anything else that has influenced you and your perceptions of aging – culture, media…?
DJ: Well again, in my family, my mother’s mother lived to 106. Her attitude was like my mother’s – she was also very healthy, never heavy, always ate healthily long before there was talk about healthy. She never jogged, she just went about and had a busy, active life. And they both had to make new friends because their friends had died.
I had a lot of trouble with dying, a tremendous fear of dying until I was 30-something. I couldn’t work it out. The fear was about coming to terms with the fact that I wouldn’t be here anymore. At some point I realized, “Listen, there’s no “if” about it! It’s not IF I die, it’s WHEN I die!” So I decided I have to make the most of it and try to have the highest quality of life that I can have in between, to find pleasure while I can and not let time pass without knowing it.
I think some of my adjustment has to do with having children and grandchildren. There’s a sense that I’m not going to be here and also a sense of continuity in my mind.
RT: What have been the best things for you about growing older?
DJ: I always say this to people – there aren’t many good things about getting older! But there is speaking your mind more freely, I think that’s one. And not putting up with things you don’t want to, I mean it should be that way. Not wasting time on things that aren’t important. Not spending time with people you don’t like or don’t want to be with. I mean nobody should do that anyway unless you have to…obviously there are some circumstances where you have no choice.
But overall, not spending time out of obligation where there is none. Time is precious. And also accepting yourself. When I was young, particularly as a teenager, I was whomever my friends expected me to be. I had several different close friends and I was somebody different for each of them for a while. I didn’t have confidence in expressing my opinions, which are pretty strong about many subjects, if I thought I would offend people. Certainly as I’ve gotten older I’m not afraid of saying them. I say what I think now. I say it in a nice way but I don’t care whether someone agrees with me or doesn’t agree with me or if they’re shocked or whatever.
I guess you should accept yourself by a certain age and not worry about those things that you worried about all the time. I think the objective is to try and have peace, to be peaceful and not worry about the things that you can’t affect. I guess I’ve gotten better with those things.
The harder things about getting older happen in increments and again, it’s about self-acceptance. I don’t like fighting those things. I think it’s foolish for a man to dye his hair – you think you’ll look younger when you don’t look younger, you just look like you’re the same age but you’ve dyed your hair. Or worrying about baldness or comb-overs or anything else like that. Or plastic surgery to make yourself look younger…I always say I’d line up first and pay the money if it actually made me younger, that would be great! But to pretend you look younger when it doesn’t make you any younger? It doesn’t restore anything that really matters.
I find that you have to adjust with each thing. My husband and I have a way of life that involves eating healthily because we want to stay slim and we want to be able to walk – and we do walk a lot – and to be able to continue to do and not stop doing anything in our lives because we can’t lug our bodies around.
There’s a constant adjustment as you get older. Every five years or so you have to adjust again because the body changes, it slows down and if you don’t adjust the weight starts to increase and then you can’t do the same things. So there’s constant adjustment. But it seems to me that you learn to deal with it. You can’t fight it or pretend it isn’t there. What can you do? It’s what happens. You have to be grateful for what you can do.
RT: Have you ever experienced ageism or age-related stigma?
DJ: Certainly I can tell people looking at me, seeing my age. A relative of ours who is a widow said she feels invisible. You know, we all look at other people, we notice attractive people. I’m not looking at 68-year old people to see how beautiful they are, I look at beautiful men who are 25 years old, now that’s very nice! But let me think about this one, how do people treat me because of my age? I’ve never had job-related issues because my work is unconventional, I’m my own boss. I think work-related ageism would be difficult. I mean there must be a big problem with ageism, even if someone is capable.
RT: On a different note, what do you know today that you didn’t know when you were a young adult?
DJ: I was in a very young marriage which was not satisfying. I guess the most important thing is my relationship with my husband without a doubt. It’s above everything else, a mile above everything else. It’s very precious. I count every moment of it because I’m aware that at some point it will end, either for him or for me, because one of us is going to go and we talk about that a lot.
I guess I’ve realized what’s important in my life and what’s not important. And what other people think isn’t particularly important unless they’re people I really love or care about and there’s a group of them. I guess when I was much younger I was uncomfortable with my physical self, with my physical body, now it is what it is and I’m comfortable with it.
RT: So there’s a lot of acceptance that happened for you…
DJ: Yeah, I always thought how lucky I was but I feel even more strongly about that now with all kinds of things – where I was born, and my family and everything else that has come to me and my life.
RT: What’s been the most challenging transition for you and what’s helped you through it?
DJ: The most challenging thing was coming out as gay without understanding it, and dealing with the effects of it on my children. Leaving the marriage was very, very difficult. Even though I wanted to leave but leaving with four young children…
I was starting a whole new life that I didn’t really understand and just going with it emotionally. There was no pattern to follow, no role models, nothing else that I knew of about it but I just went with my heart without using my brain which I’ve done most of the time! I always say that the best, most important, decisions you make are made not with the brain but with your heart, taking a leap, taking a jump and taking a chance.
That part is so hard to explain because I meet young, gay people socially and I talk to them and say you can’t understand this, that in the early 1970s I’d never heard of two gay people living together. It wasn’t even an option. I understood about being attracted but I never, never…I actually didn’t know that two men kissed, you know that? So it was pioneering in my own way. And then when I moved out, the day I moved out, I called my-now- husband and said “I’m moving out today” and he said, “Oh! Do you want to move in here?” and I said, “Oh, okay.” We never knew, never had an idea, that we could set up a life together, it wasn’t known, we just did it! But it was nothing we’d seen or read about or heard of. We just decided that if someone didn’t invite the two of us somewhere together, we just wouldn’t go. We didn’t announce it to anybody and it just happened that everything followed. Then of course we got strong.
But at first there was nothing known. We fantasized about that life together but we never heard of it or certainly didn’t know of anyone else living like that. It was a time of tremendous turmoil.
RT: What helped you through that?
DJ: The emotions were so strong, it was like a tornado. There was no choice. That’s all we wanted so we just kept going. We just saw it through, there wasn’t any thinking. And no talking. It just was.
When I left that day, a close relative said to me, “Do you think this relationship will last?” And I said to him, “Well, I’d be foolish to say so, to make a statement after I’m just coming out of an 11-year relationship that didn’t last but I hope it lasts as long I want it to last. That’s all I can say.”
He said to me, “Well you know that no homosexual relationship has ever lasted more than six months.” So I said, “Well where did you get your information?”
He said, “I don’t know.” So then as soon as I got home to my husband I said to him, “We’re going to make it to six months and I’m going to send him a card when it’s six months and one day!” which he didn’t let me do. Who knew?!
I was 19 when I got married the first time. When this all happened I was 30 and I actually thought that 30 was so old that my life was basically over. I thought whatever happened with this relationship, well there couldn’t be that much of a future because I was already 30 years old. Isn’t that funny?
RT: And how long have you two been together?
DJ: It’ll be 38 years later this year! It’s funny – of course now, people get married in their 30s, have children when they’re in their 40s, I always liked to do things early! Yes, I thought 30 was “It” – you were already over the hill.
RT: Wow! 38 years! Sounds like that was also the best risk you took in your life.
DJ: Yes, it was. And adopting children was another big risk as well. And it was just a jump.
RT: What was that risk about for you?
DJ: Well it was starting all over. First of all, I never planned on having any more children. I wanted to have children when I was young so that I would grow up and be finished with the child-raising and have adult children when I was still young and could enjoy them, which all turned out to be true. But then I started all over again and I’m still not finished. My husband never had children and it meant a lot to him and that was why I did it. I thought I couldn’t deny him something so basic if that was what he wanted.
And with that too – we were gay, we didn’t know any other gay people who had children, and so we were again at the beginning of that movement here. Our family was inter-racial and that was another factor. So those were all unknowns to us. When we called the doctor he said that life is a crap shoot and we agreed. And again we went with emotion.
We went through a lot with the whole thing. People used to stop us on the street for both reasons – being gay and being inter-racial.
RT: Wow, you just knocked down barriers everywhere, didn’t you?!
DJ: Well I just believe that we do a little circle and hopefully that spreads out into another ring where people say well I know these people, and it goes on and on. When I left in the first relationship and I was gay, that was a big thing, with the children too. My ex-wife’s doctor said that I was “polymorphous perverse” and that the children must never know (remember it was the early 1970s) and that if they ever found out it would just destroy them. So for a while I didn’t tell.
There was no knowledge around it, there were no TV shows talking about it, there was nothing. I didn’t want to take a chance and risk destroying my children but I was feeling very badly. We never said there was a relationship between my husband and me. I wanted them to see a good relationship and I like being honest anyway. I’ve always wanted to be truthful and I never wanted to hide things or lie, especially to my children.
It took a number of years and then after a while I realized I didn’t care what that doctor thought, I didn’t believe it. And then I told my eldest and once I told her I thought I should tell the next child and once I started with two, I went to three and four and told them all. Those were difficult days – there was no support or back-up or somebody guiding you. Probably my instincts were pretty good. Ultimately I believe that we’re just humans, basically all the same no matter what the variation.
RT: Yes, and that it was about love in the end.
DJ: Yes, right. And the whole thing, all aspects of this are about love including being an inter-racial family. The nicest part is that all my children became close to each other and that was what I wanted, that was my fantasy (for them). That’s really important to my husband and me, it gives us a lot of security, to know that our two kids have a solid family that loves them and whom they love.
RT: What do you think of now when you think of your own death or of dying now?
DJ: The only negative, I mean I don’t want to die, that’s for sure, I’d like to have immortality but it doesn’t seem to be a possibility…
RT: Well, how would you like to die?
DJ: Actually, there are two things. I would like to know in advance. I’d like to prepare in whatever way I want to prepare whether I want to speak to people or have things in order. As bad as anything can be, I’d rather know it than not know it. I don’t want surprises in life.
And of course, I’d like it to be sudden. It would be wonderful to know I’d die in three months and then in three months (snaps fingers) Lights Out! I don’t want to suffer, I don’t want pain or to slowly deteriorate in a way in which I can’t look after myself. I don’t want to live like that, I don’t want to be a burden to anybody else. We always say shoot me if I get to a certain stage but I could live with uncertainty, with incapacities, as long as I could move around or get around or do something but as soon as I couldn’t look after myself, I don’t want to be alive.
When you get to my age you see people die slowly with diseases like cancer and it’s pretty horrible. They just get worse and worse. You think how bad this is but you know that next week it’s going to be worse and that you’re going to think that this wasn’t so bad. So how do you want to die is an easy question to answer: some notice and fast (for me!).
RT: What matters to you today? What’s important for you?
DJ: The number one thing that matters most to me is the welfare and wellbeing of the ones that I love. Also we travel a lot, I’d love to keep traveling. I have a future plan if it ever works out that when the kids are both out of the house, we’d move to Europe for a couple of years, London or Paris, and spend two years there, set up house there and travel all around. So if we’re in good health, if we can afford it and if we see that the kids are settled, we’ll do it.
When you have children, seeing them settled and having lives of their own and being independent, that is an important one. I always thought how exciting it would be to have a grandchild but I realized after I had that grandchild, who is now 17, that the most exciting part for me wasn’t having a grandchild but seeing my child have a child. That was more important. Watching my children, seeing them have their lives, relating to their children. I love looking at my children with their children – it’s really special.
RT: If you were to share a piece of advice about the experience of aging, or to help others with aging, what would it be?
DJ: I have a good quote by Stephen Sondheim – because I’m a big Stephen Sondheim fan - “Opportunity is not a lengthy visitor” that’s from Into the Woods. My husband and I quote that all the time. You have to take advantage of opportunity.
I also thought that Paul Newman, when he turned 70, said something in an interview that I liked too. Someone said to him how smart he had been in his life choices and he said well the truth is that I’ve been very, very lucky. However the one thing I can say about myself is that when an opportunity presented itself, I took it, I acted on it.
I feel the same way about myself – that I’m very, very lucky but I think you have to actively be open to things and when they are there, take that chance. I think that change is vital. The people I see who don’t cope well are people who can’t deal with change. The truth of it is change comes whether you want it or not. If you get old enough, some of your friends die, people move away, the world changes and if you aren’t open to change, your world diminishes. It keeps diminishing and diminishing. All you’re left with is saving old things, and talking about old things or thinking about how things were wonderful.
My grandmother always said the good old days were not the good old days and that’s quite true. There were no good old days. Do we want to live a hundred years ago when Jews were living in ghettos and Black people were slaves and gay people were killed? Aside from no medicines and antibiotics, so there are no good old days.
My mother was a good example too because my parents had a fantastic relationship. They were close as friends, they shared all kinds of interests together, they loved spending time together, they always spent their time together. But when my father died, which was suddenly, my mother never felt sorry for herself. She felt that she was lucky for what she had, not for what she had lost.
So that was my example. I always felt that it was like the embryo of a chicken before it’s born and the egg…you have all this nourishment, what a relationship should do and what it should give you, all this nourishment to store up and then when you’re without it, you feed off it. That’s how I look at it. Of course, I’ve never been put to the test but that’s how I hope, if I’m the survivor, I hope that’s how I’ll look at it.
I think you have to be positive and have a sense of humor about things. If you want people around you, you can’t complain. You can’t complain about what’s wrong. Nobody wants to be around that. My grandmother never did that. We always wondered what physically was bothering her because she never said anything. She never complained about her aches and pains. People don’t want to hear that unless it’s a bunch of old people sitting around saying the same thing. Nobody young wants to be around (that).
As you get older, there’s no escaping it, things are more difficult, there’s no question. You get things you never had before. If there’s a muscle you haven’t used in a while, you get a muscle ache.
But my grandmother did those air force exercises in the shower for 40 years. My husband and I both do exercises in the shower, the only official exercise other than walking and running up the stairs. I try to sell people on it, it’s great for flexibility. I want to be flexible, that’s why I do it, that matters to me because that affects my life.
Exercise in the shower is wonderful! It’s heated so it loosens the muscles, you don’t need a fancy outfit, you don’t have to go any place and pay any money and finally you don’t have to take a shower after because you’re in the shower! And it’s great – I used to get neck aches and back aches when I did different things and since I started this, I don’t get them at all.
We want a quality of life, that’s the key! Because what good is it if you don’t have a good physical quality of life. And mental health is important too, as important as physical health. You can’t age well if you don’t spend social time with people. The value of real friendship is so important, real friends are your chosen family. You need people around you, you need to be socially engaged, you need something to stimulate you and good mental health is important as you age, there’s no question. I believe that having peace of mind is really important too…to be a moral person, respecting others and having integrity.
I think perspective is the point. You don’t complain when you have perspective because you know what life is like for 90% of the people in the world. You always have to know how lucky you are, at any age.